As anyone that lives in Shanghai knows, we are not blessed with an abundance of venues in which to view live music. There is YuYinTang (which claims 450 capacity, but really can only cater for 150-200 comfortably), Live Bar (which is around 150 capacity and is so far away from downtown, it may as well be in Japan) and LoGo, to which the moniker Live House would be a massive, massive overstatement.
And so, when the Zhijiang Dream Factory came to light in mid 2008, it served as a boon to live music afficionados in the city. It sounded terrible and the lighting looked like epileptic weasels shining torches from the rafters, but it was a venue with a stage that 400 people could see comfortably. It was a massive step up.
It hosted some good shows by local promoters and recently, it has become a fairly regular destination for bigger bands and bigger crowds.
Local promoters Split Works have hosted Battles, Demerit, the Young Knives and the sellout Maybe Mars showcase; S.T.D. will be promoting Ratatat there in May; Abe Deyo did Canadian Band You Say Party! We Say Die there and local label Soma did a very well attended showcase with Shanghai based bands the Mushrooms, Zhong Chi, Momo and Little Nature.
So, it is with regret that we announce that the venue may soon be ineligible for regular usage. The Soma record label have offered the building management some kind of deal, where they (Soma) will put in a better PA in exchange for being able to book the venue Wednesday through Sunday. Needless to say, the venue is now 150% more expensive to rent, making it impossible for independent promoters to use it (it was hard enough initially).
UPDATE: Andy Best pulls less punches than the Radar here
In a world where promoters work for months on negotiating, contracting, promoting, tour managing and ticketing events (and taking all the risk), it seems bizarre that people that manage the building take the entire bar and a huge percentage of the door. It just isn’t a viable situation. We cannot see many big shows happening in Shanghai’s only 500 capacity venue after May, which can only be a backward step for Shanghai’s burgeoning live music scene.
Wait, why is this necessarily *bad*? It presumably means that it will have regular live music EVERY Wednesday through Sunday, rather than a sporadic show a few times a month.
I haven’t talked to the Soma dudes in depth yet about their plans, but they’re good guys who are way more invested in and committed to the Shanghai scene than anyone talking here, myself included. Their interest appears to lie more in promoting local acts and building a local fanbase than bringing in international bands or catering to expat audiences – but I’d argue that those are more important in the long run to creating a sustainable music scene.
It strikes me as unfair to presume the worst here. I’d recommend talking to Lao Yao and Pangpang etc first before jumping to conclusions here – it seems a bit indicative of a problematic lack of communication between the Shanghainese and the expat music scenes.
Hi Lisa
I sort of understand your perspective, but I completely disagree with it and actually find it typical of the xenophobic crap that often accompanies foreigners contributions to the “scene” here in Shanghai.
OK, so one, we have spoken to Pangpang, and he has quoted us RMB15,000 for rental or a 50|50 split of tickets for the Dream Factory. They also wanted 10,000RMB for Little Nature to WARM UP for the Stills in a couple of weeks time, which is more than we pay for most of the international acts (WTF??).
We had finally worked out a decent deal with the DF that allowed us to do regular shows there. We have always had Chinese bands on our bills (at our last show, 3 Chinese acts before Battles) and I would argue that we do a lot for the local scene by investing money bringing artists here (we have only made money on one show that we’ve ever done in Shanghai). We bring in some of the best bands in the world on our own dime that give the Chinese bands an invaluable first hand experience of what is possible. I know that, because I talk to all the Chinese bands at all of our shows and they are usually gobsmacked by the level of performance/ ability and leave the shows determined to raise their own games.
We have been using the Dream Factory for a while, and in fact, most of the decent shows in that venue have been ours. Yes, Soma have done one showcase very successfully there (and also one compilation album), but please tell me what else they have done since to justify your comment
“are way more invested in and committed to the Shanghai scene than anyone talking here, myself included”.
I would argue that, by asking a ridiculous amount of money for the venue, the Soma guys are doing the local and international scene a massive disservice. They have promoted one show in there, and I imagine they are expecting the “rich foreigners” to pick up the slack. If we don’t (and we can’t at that price), then the venue will be empty most of the time. How is it not a good thing to have bands like Battles and Ratatat coming through Shanghai??
And I wish you would stop talking as if the two are so mutually exclusive. We talk to the band, the labels and the venues all the time and are very connected with what they are doing/ want.
i agree that it’s a bit fast to presume only bad things about soma’s intentions. maybe they do have good intentions in mind to pull more shows more often. `
but lisa do you really think they will be able to fill dream factories from wednesday to sunday every week with local bands ?!? this is totally nonsense. i mean the whole objection here is about obviously barring other promoters that have basically the same idea (promoting music and having more quality gigs in a medium-sized venue, xenophobic thing aside) from using dream factories !! unless soma agrees to sub-rent their new home venue with a decent deal to other similar promoters, on that point i think guys like you archie should talk with them quickly in that way.
i remember trying to book dream factories about 2 years ago and being an isolated guy with only one gig to submit, they of course showed me a 5 digit price to rent the place. the owners themselves didn’t have any interest in hosting live music particularly since it was harder to make money from it than from the plays, exhibitions and other conventions happenning there regularly at that time. so anyway, having more gigs there is what we all want. but soma alone of course can’t do that.
Regardless of the argument above — the fact is, it won’t work, at any rate. Not a chance. That place has far less charm than 4 Live did and even 4 Live couldn’t sustain proper live music more than once a week.
archie, with the warmer weather coming up, is there a chance for an outdoor venue to fill the gap until something else opens (and it always seems to) up?
and for fucks sake, Lisa Movius, are you still dropping into blogs and trying to impress? go tell someone new to town you used to hang out with Crystal Butterfly.
aric +1
If this is all true, it doesn’t look good. Local promoters cannot afford to suck on that kind of cost, and out-of-town bands too big for YYT are unlikely to take kindly to paying Little Nature 10K for a cameo. I would like to see what Soma will do with this venue beyond use it to promote acts from their roster. It would be a real shame to see this move herald the end of a run which has seen really exciting bands from China and further afield on the Dream Factory stage.
Lisa, I think you are mistaken in thinking that overseas influence in the local music scene is somehow constricting the development of Shanghai’s bands. Why deny local artists the opportunity to watch, play with and impress overseas acts? Certainly seems to have been a positive experience for Pinkberry to have played with The Queers.
Furthermore, if catering to the ‘expat audience’ is not important in developing Shanghai’s music scene, why waste so much ink repeatedly promoting Moma, Crazy Mushroom and Little Nature in That’s Shanghai each month? Because you feel they should have access to a wider audience? Another way to do this is by sharing crowds and sharing venues. Monopolising the city’s best stage is not going to breath life into the music scene, it’s going to suffocate it.
Lisa, nobody is saying having live music every Sunday – Wednesday is bad. However, there is something to be said about doing so so that other people that are passionate about music in Shanghai can also do their thing.
Your opinion of the Soma guys being “good guys who are way more invested in and committed to the Shanghai scene than anyone talking here” is relative, I could easily say the same about the other promoters. Unless the Soma guys explain themselves and their decision, so I can know their true intention, it’s he say/she say; and my opinion will hold that Why can’t they be passionate with their plan in a way that nobody’s really stopping everybody else’s progress. Why does “commit to the Shanghai music scene” means that they have to rain on other people’s parades (or as so it seems).
As for the accusation of bringing in (quality) international bands is an attempt at catering to the expat audiance, where do you think indie rock come from; it is not like the Soma guys are promoting traditional Chinese music, they are promoting their version of indie rock (which originated, well, in the West), they didn’t start indie rock and they certainly didn’t get their influences from thin air. So international bands coming over to play is a natural progression and a good way to do some mutual learning (as the international bands come and play, the Chinese bands may pick up some influences, and vice versa, and both will grow from this expierience). It just happen right now a lot of the expat guys come and catch these international bands (and it’s taking the Chinese audiance some time to come see these bands), but it doesn’t look like anybody’s really planning “oh let’s put on a show targeted exclusively to expats”, in fact, from what I understand, there has been some major attempts to get more Chinese audiances.
If you look at cities in the world and pluck the ones with the most vibrant music scenes you’ll find that they have a dynamic culture of live performance.
The key to sustaining this kind of scene is cross-fertilization and variety; moves that restrict the variety of people that can access a venue will not promote variety and will not promote cross-fertilization.
The more venues you have, the more bands playing that are local and from abroad, the more artists you can get to rub shoulders – the more sparks will fly, and the more magic will happen.
Promoters that care about breeding new culture shouldn’t be worried about claiming turf – only worried about how to best fertilize the ground so the garden can grow, the flowers can bloom.
Credit to Soma for actually communicating with the (potential) local audience way more than any of these expat promoters. The only problem is they suffer from BAD TASTE.
Really Swami? I have a team of people who spend 30-40 hours a week talking to the local audience via Douban, Xiaonei, Kaixin, etc.etc. The problem is that breaking new bands is a very, very slow process.
The success of what we are all doing here at the moment is plain to see. Thanks to the efforts of both the native Shanghainese and the “foreigners”, we actually have a music scene in Shanghai. Compared to 3 years ago, Shanghai is a musical utopia…
(oops, clicked send too soon)
Having MORE live music , ie, 5 nights a week in one place, again, is going to be a set-back. It’s better to have less frequent, high quality gigs, than a bunch of random nights where people and bands go and have a low turnout and un-ready acts (to be polite). We still have a very small pool of people into rock bands here in Shanghai (expat or local) and I worry that they’ll just get turned off if the first time they go see a rock band, they see someone doing bad covers of Coldplay. It’s better if they get a chance once a month, or even once a week, to see a top act like Battles or PK-14.
If you look at cities in the world and pluck the ones with the most vibrant music scenes you’ll find that they have a dynamic culture of live performance.
The key to sustaining this kind of scene is cross-fertilization and variety; moves that restrict the variety of people that can access a venue will not promote variety and will not promote cross-fertilization.
The more venues you have, the more bands playing that are local and from abroad, the more artists you can get to rub shoulders – the more sparks will fly, and the more magic will happen.
Promoters that care about breeding new culture shouldn’t be worried about claiming turf – only worried about how to best fertilize the ground so the garden can grow, the flowers can bloom.
All of this is turning into a massive rush to judgement based on little and limited information.
Soma informs me that they’re talking to a lot of European, Japanese and domestic promotors and bands, and hoping to work with other people with ideas.
They welcome collaboration with other promoters and organizers, and say conditions will be about the same as previously with Zhijiang’s owners.
Their first show will be Muma, playing May 8.
What I meant before is that these are guys who have been active in ShRock since some of them were teens or tweens, 15-20 years. They for better or for worse are stuck here, unlike those of us who are here by choice. To accuse them of exploitative profiteering, given how much of their lives and livelihoods they have sacrificed to support rock in Shanghai, is both vicious and ludicrous.
An opening rate is, in China, just a hypothetical; especially when dealing with new management. What gives with the eager nastiness? It’s rather out of place in a such a small, interdependent scene, where goodwill, communication and cooperation is very much needed. A lot of this has potential to be self-fulfulling prophecy, counting and courting imaginary villians.
The facts of the matter are simply that the new deal offered directly to Spiltworks ups their costs by at least 150%
I checked with Brad briefly about the Control show and the details of that and found that this new ‘deal’ would in fact more than double the previous overheads, which were already stifling to the scene no matter where you’re from.
The main recent growth of the scene has been fostered by Yuyintang hanging in there and succeeding (on their own scale) and 0093. Then Archie has also built up slowly to the regular DF events which always feature local bands. Behind this we have indies like Brad and Abe or locals bands like Loudspeaker doing their own one-offs etc and smaller local bars too. But the credit for the boom of bands is almost all to the YYT and 0093 environment.
It doesn’t matter who Soma are or what they’ve done. Taking over an existing part of the scene and upper the charges on everyone deserves comment an discussion.
I think Adam brings up a good point in the cultures rich in performance, and suppose it just comes down to compare/contrast – is the scene more abundant than 10 years ago? yes, Archie said it himself, ‘a utopia’ – so the line is going up. venues opening/closing seems to be an organic part of the process and the frustrations that follow – should they be used as constant education, will only lessen should the original objective of spotlighting bands/building the scene go un-wavered.
Lisa, you lady bastard, I’m not sure what you read in this post that made you think ‘oh, they secretly want to hear more’ – we don’t. your posts reflect nothing more than someone who may have come to China by choice, but could never leave; thus the constant name dropping (‘Soma informs me’, ‘I’d recommend talking to…’) and delusions of grandeur (‘vicious and ludicrous’). you can quote on the ‘tweens’ because no doubt, you’re sleeping with one. fuck off. seriously. in fact, let’s make this easy for you: for every person you can bring to this blog saying ‘Lisa Movius is important to the scene’, I will bring two saying you’re a cancerous little charlatan – deal? otherwise, you should just move to a mine.
I don’t think because “guys who have been active in ShRock since some of them were teens or tweens, 15-20 years. They for better or for worse are stuck here” then what they are doing to the scene is nessissarily for the best. Those that choose to stay in Shanghai tempernarily can have great idea in helping out with the scene and is genuinly sincere about improving the scene. So the implication there itself is a fallacy. Human trades and time duration are two independent variables. I dont think “stay here for a long time” implies “oh they are doing things right” or even “oh they care about the scene more” and “staying here temp” means they don’t care about the scene. The logic is ill here. Especially when you talk to people like Archie you know he’s passionate about the scene in SH.
To add to the above logic, if I find a bunch of guys that’s been playing indie rock in Shanghai even longer than the soma guys, then those guys will know what they are doing more, or they will care about the scene more? is that how it works? So it’s like claiming a turf…
Also, to make sure this is defo not about ‘foreigners’ let me introduce another independent promoter who struggles to put on his own shows and has ambitions for larger events that will be thwarted by these new rates at the DF:
I give you, Frank Fen Ran of the Mortal Fools.
Let’s not forget I’m not a “foreigner” either, I was born in China and grew up in China, both my parents and all my relatives are in China. I should be a pretty good representation of a typical young Chinese kid.
Everyone
While we appreciate freedom of speech and very much appreciate the level of debate, name calling and personal vilification is unhelpful. We understand that this is an emotive subject for those involved, but please let’s stick to discussing the points at hand.
Thanks all!
so…someone hurting the scene is less important than hurting her feelings?
wait until I throw out a white racial slur for this.
And just to make sure we aren’t talking about foreign bands vs Chinese bands may I add that it will be harder for Maybe Mars (and other labels, managers and promoters) from outside of Shanghai to put on large shows there.
被说一下又说我们欺负你, 我们说得太重了. 那你现在弄得大家都有意见你还觉得你做的是对的吗. 又不是你一个人在弄这个东西. 你应给和大家合作一起推广音乐. 而且又不是说大家做的方法都是错的就你一个公司做的方法是对的. 太自大了吧. 觉得我们冤枉你就跳出来解释一下吧. 大家都是在为中国的音乐着想, 很真心的, 看得出来. 但如果你承认这是一个手段让你们公司得力但是亏了大家, 那以后我们也不用和你说什么中国音乐的发展. 因为你就是为商业在着想, 在某利. 也不用把自已说的多伟大, 承认这一点. 这种”大家都是错的就你一个人是对的”的想法是不对的
我明白你可能认为好想说外国人在中国推广音乐好想不干他们的事. 但是你推广的本来就是外国音乐啊. 等你推广中国很古典的音乐的时候你在跟我说特权这件事. 你大部分的 influence 都是外国音乐来的. 现在中国的 indie rock 没有国际的水准是因为来自外界的高水准的 influence 还不够多, 中国的乐手要好的音乐来感染他们. 外国的对音乐发烧的友人想办法把外国当红的 indie 乐团请过来, 大家互相学习, 让更多的火花冒出来, 这是一件很好的事. 你在哪里要什么特权阿. 有一些外国人可能做的不太好, 但是 Archie 和我是好朋友, 我知道他对中国的音乐发展是真心的 – 中国的. 你们应该互相帮忙, 如果大家的目标都是一样的话. 如果不是的话也不要摆出一副只有你知道音乐, 你是中国音乐救世主的态度. 多跟外国 promoter 聊聊天, 你就知道谁是真心的, 谁不是. Archie 他们是, split-work 是. 你们应该多照顾一下, 多帮忙, 好吗
Nobody’s 骂ing the Soma guys here Lisa. Telling them that people are isn’t going to help the situation. There needs to be more communication and they need to cooperate with people, not try to cut them out.
This isn’t personal. People here – Chinese and foreigners – just care about the scene and want to see what’s best for it. From the information we have, it doesn’t seem like this is for the best at all. If the information is wrong, the Soma guys should come out and put us all straight, not feel they are being unfairly turned into the bad guys.
Of course, if the information is right, then it seems like they are trying to cut out other promoters who have worked hard to build something here and have done it through a community ethos. Soma might do well to remember where their current crop of IndieTop bands have come from. Would those bands have the potential to sell records if it hadn’t been for 0093 and YYT working together? YYT didn’t have to give over a Friday night every month to unknown kids from 0093, but they did and the bands, and the scene, have benefited.
If we can get to a point where competition is healthy for the scene then great, that’ll mean we’ve got something of a decent size going. But we ain’t there yet. Until then, working together seems to be the best way to go
i saw young knives and battles at dream factory. both split works shows i think? COMPLETE foreigner fest. i mean, i did a bit of reading about them and they preach how they are trying to help the local scene, but both of the gigs i went too was like standing in some gig back in the states. what if the venue and the label are just working together to attract a more chinese crowd? what if they are sick of foreigners doing shows in shanghai that do nothing for locals? lets not forget where we (expats) are. no, not a city which is ripe for exploitation. tsk tsk. bad expat promoter! anyway, i think i’ll stop going to these gigs to help the ratio out a bit more. how long have these guys been around anyway? might do some digging around. thoughts? info?
@JKW, we generally do a survey at the door, and both shows were around 40%|60% Chinese|Expat. This is a high number of Laowai, granted, and something that we are trying to turn around (have been for over 3 years) but we are fighting a number of different obstacles
(1) Chinese mainstream media is loathe to give us much coverage for these bands. They are not considered glamorous or celebrity enough to bother about (it’s either that or we pay for print)
(2) We have done plenty of shows that have had largely Chinese audiences. The Maybe Mars showcase was 80% Chinese in both Shanghai and Beijing. Sonic Youth was about the same. However, bands that are still good and popular/ well known in China are few and far between and mostly very expensive. There are perhaps one or two Chinese “indie” bands that could fill that space on their own. So what do you suggest we do?
(3) The Chinese are largely unwilling to be the first onto something. As a result, when we bring in bands with a low Chinese profile the first time, we have a less than optimal Chinese turn out. I guarantee that if/ when we bring any of these bands back, the proportion will go up significantly.
We are in this for the long term. We have made money on 1 band/ artist in over 3 years. Does this really make us exploitative…??
JKW: Wow, that’s about the most racist thing I’ve heard in a while. I can’t speak for Archie or Split, but please don’t come to any shows I might promote in the future. Not only will you be helping the Chinese to Foreign ratio, you’ll also be lowering the pretentious asshole quotient.
hi guys.. i’m now working for soma as a part time job. and i know Archie,we had short talks when i was in mushroom as a drummer. and now i play for sonnet.
anyway, i have to correct some wrong info in the post. we have not take over DF through wed. to sun. and we just book the Sat. & sun.
and pangpang quote 1,000RMB for little nature not 10,000RMB.
as an indie lable in shanghai, we want to help the local young musicians, so we create the indie top series. to my opinion,the first one is really not that ‘indie’ ,some foreign friends told me about that. and i talked to lao yao & pangpang about the problem, and i’m now preparing the second one and we have invited ‘my little airport’(HK),neyuabe(malaysia),5mis(france.beijing),tookoo,perdal,bigger bang….we want the second one will not be that ‘pop’ as you said and be a true reflection of chinese indie musicians. we record the songs for the bands for free and pay for them to use their in indie top album.indie top is just at its beginning, we’ll make it better.
we want to cooperate with DF to build up a high level live house, we invest about 1,200,000RMB equipments including the PA system and the lighting. and we are now cooperating with other indie lable like hot pot & modern sky to do gigs in DF. and we are now talking with my little airport.旺福.and toe(jp), orange range(jp) to arrange their gigs in DF. and every band we invite will have a chance to have an interview on fm101.7 for 1 hour(the program will be broadcasted at 5pm every Sat.) to promote themselves.
we have good relationship with the local media and FM101.7&103.7 will broadcast our gig info(every sat.5pm to 6pm on fm101.7 & from Mon.to Friday one week before the gig from 7pm-9pm on fm103.7) and give free tickets for the audience. and we are now talking with the ICS to promote our gig on their TV program. we want more people will come to watch the gigs and get to know about the scene.
the way how we will cooperate with DF is still under negotiating cause we will also have to share the tickets income with DF. the first gig we arrange will be MUMA&third party on 8th. May, we pay for the band and afford the flight & hotel fee. we’ll not make money if 400 people come to watch the gig. cause our only income is the ticket. but DF will benefit from the ticket and the drinks.
soma will not be the autarch of DF, and we are will to cooperate with the foreign promotors on the mutual benefit. and if someone want to talk to me you can add my msn: y2k_ice@hotmail.com
thank you:)
Thanks for your post Lezi, and thanks for clearing things up. If you are upgrading the PA and lights, then we are all very grateful. Your plan also sounds very promising to promote up-and-coming artists and bands and we wish you and the Soma guys the very best of luck with it.
Again, thanks for coming on the site to clear things up.
Pingback: Live Music This Weekend: Re-TROS, Magnetic, and Ice Tea | Get Shanghaied
Oi! That last comment is my post. But that ain’t Shanghaiist
So ah, a month after this discussion, how are things working out?
Good work Micah. Keep that thread alive…
Honestly, I can say that month 1 has been a success for the Soma boys. Muma was packed out, Brain Failure less so and there is the big Andy C show this weekend which will be interesting.
That will be followed by two more ex-Bonbon shows, A-Trak and Fatman Scoop. However, these are both bookings that the Bonbon staff were unable to get out of and had to find somewhere else to host. I am pretty sure that they won’t be doing any more shows outside of their own venue.
The sound and light are better, certainly, but I think that the business model has been built on these legacy booking from Bonbon. Whether they can keep going when the ex-Bonbon guys bail out is another matter. The venue is still too expensive for most of the promoters out there, who will routinely pick Yuyintang where possible.
Just my 2 cents…
I was reminded of this thread when I saw the MXPX show being advertised at RMB 220 or something like that. I think it’s good to go back and reflect on this issue so that we can get the most out of it.
This looks pretty cool for 100, though: Duke Ellington Orchestra Jazz Concert at the Shanghai Concert Hall.
Surely Fatman Scoop should be playing Windows II?
Pingback: The Dream Factory, visited… | China Music Radar
Pingback: Shanghai’s Dream Factory – to be an empty shell once more? | China Music Radar
Pingback: Mao Shanghai | China Music Radar
Doing live shows is always a tricky proposition that tries to balance many factors. Maybe a model to consider (albeit in the U.S.) could be Coachella Music & Arts Festival in Southern California (http://www.coachella.com). Though the festival presently has corporate support (that is critical to their present success), their start was a creative passion to bring eclectic bands together within a financial model that gives everybody involved a chance to make money while performing to substantial audiences – with potentially many new fans to develop their fanbase.
Maybe on special occassions, a concert can be done in front of the Pearl Towers (ala Shanghai Live Aid). Obviously political connections need to be secured, “proper” artists need to be incorporated with local independent bands, etc. but it can be done.
To suggest that a financial model of just having indie bands that don’t have a draw exists is only for people that are independently wealthy and/or maybe in conjunction with an online company that sees some financial profit possibility in this scenario.
Just thoughts for people’s consideration
Pingback: Mao Shanghai | China Music Radar
Pingback: Mao Live to be knocked down? | China Music Radar